5/14/2004

Can Liberals Make an Argument? You decide!

Is it just me, or are liberals unable to make any kind of logical argument? They always resort to ad hominem (attack on the person), ad misericordiam (appeal to pity), ad nauseam, or Straw Man arguments. They simply don't have a strong argument on any of their views so they resort to diversionary tactics and illogical arguments. It's difficult to debate with a liberal because they always appeal to the emotional. Either to get a rise out of you or to appeal to the masses. When dealing with a lib, I just try to remain calm and make a logical argument.

Here's a debate that I joined at Fark after the beheading of Nic Berg. Don't ask me why, but I viewed the video. In a previous profession, I'd seen my share of death (not an enjoyable part of that job), so I have a strong stomach. I really didn't want to see this man die...but I did want to see the guys doing the killing. Perhaps just to understand their mindset. However, the sight of these animals chating "Allah Akbar" (god is great) while brutally killing an unarmed civilian truly saddened and incensed me. The only insight I gained is knowing that these people are beyond reaching through any sort of diplomacy. The only thing they'll understand is death...hopefully their own.

I did resort to the invective a few times because I was so irritated after viewing the video and reading some of the liberal BS that was posted. Things like, "He got what he deserved for going over there and supporting the U.S.", and "If we only took as much time to understand the Fundamentalist Muslims as we did fighting a war against them, this wouldn't have happened," "Bush lied to us," "Bush stole the election," and so on.

This exchange is kinda long, but worth the read...good for a few laughs at their meager attempts at argument. The original post was refuting the distorted facts that liberals like to tout about the Vietnam war (since they love the whole quagmire comparison).

My post for reference:

Just Ignorant --

How appropriate a name. You cannot compare Vietnam to Iraq though you libs will continue to try.

First off, the war was lost here at home by you hippies protesting the war. We were winning the war (NVA & VC dead:1.1 million - US Dead:58k. The NVA strategy became propaganda against the war and they were assisted in their propaganda by asshats like Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and John F'ing Kerry with their traitorous actions. The NVA KNEW they couldn't win the war...so they turned the U.S. public against it via propaganda.

Secondly, on January 27, 1973, the Paris Peace accords were signed which was essentially a cease-fire and a simultaneous withdrawal of US forces. The issue of South Vietnamese sovereignty was to be decided later...without war. The US promised withdrawal and the NVA promised not to attack the north. This appeased you peace activist commies, but was disastrous to the South Vietnamese people when in 1974, the NVA broke the agreement and attacked the south. With only a small number of US forces left, the South Vietnamese were overrun bit by bit until Saigon was overrun...to the sounds of your cheering.

You commie hippies just don't get it. The South Vietnamese didn't want communism...they wanted to be free. The US offered to help halt the spread of Communism with that in mind. Of course, if it was up to you hippies, the world would be a Utopia under communism...which is precisely why you have opposed any war against communist forces...

Now, it's Blame America First all over again with the hippie crowd. Al Qaeda is right and justified and the U.S. is wrong. It's America's fault because of our support of Israel. It's America's fault because they don't have economic opportunity. It's America's fault because...(insert BS here). If this was 1942, you'd be wondering why the Japanese were so disenfranchised that they would attack us. You'd be marching in Washington against going to war in Germany and Italy since those people were harmless to us. Well, fortunately, liberalism wasn't as widespread then, otherwise most of Europe would be speaking German...and there wouldn't be any Jews left either.

You liberal hippies live under the delusion that all war is bad and should be avoided at all costs. If people want to kill us then we must have done something to cause them to hate us that much. I hate to burst your bubble, but there are bad people in this world that will try to eliminate us as a country...if we let them...or should I say...if YOU let them.


Now here's a lib responding to that post...pretty humorous since he didn't even attempt to refute my argument.

slayer199 --

"we should increase troops and wipe out all of the Fundamentalist Muslims."

...who look exactly like the others. But you won't mind killing them all for good measure. Your ideas on Vietnam prove that much. Exactly what do you imagine you're defending? You're empty inside. Vietnam:

"We were winning the war (NVA & VC dead:1.1 million - US Dead:58k."

The genocide just wasn't enough for you. What's a good number? 10 million human lives? 20 million? If the goal was a pro-U.S. government, then no amount of scorched earth, no millions-to-thousands ratio of dead buys you a win.

Inhuman, soulless ideologue. I know what would have made your kind happy: put our crimes on par with Stalin's. Leave a few crippled, radiation-sick Vietnamese hobbling around in your smoking moonscape of a "free" capitalist wonderland. We could invest there, build vacation homes on the coast. Maybe pay some mutant widows and children to have sex with us, "doing them a favor" we'd say.

I am simply trying to imagine what positive outcome you imagine from the holocaust we perpetrated in Southeast Asia. You would kill nine out of ten, and let the remainder vote for the U.S.-approved candidate, or else.

You would destroy nearly anything real (countless people and resources) in defense of something imagined (mere ideas about sacred capitalism and infectious communism).

Turn your appetite for destruction against yourself now. Or rather, against your sick ideas: kill yourself to stamp them out! Harsh? A bit of your own medicine. This is the "win" dangling before your eyes in Asia, Iraq etc. for ever and ever. Destroy the hollow shell that remains of your humanity.>>


Pretty funny isn't it? Not one attempt at an argument. Ad hominem attacks and appeals to pity...how beautiful. Here's another funny one. I was pointing out how Clinton was a failure...especially in terms of foreign policy.

My Post for Reference:

Finally, if Clinton had done his job while in office instead of fooling around with interns (he saw Monica more than he saw the Director of the CIA...in 8 friggin years), we wouldn't be in this position to begin with...and yes, the Sudan offered up bin Laden not once...not twice...but three times and Clinton refused because he didn't feel he could prosecute. Uh hello dumbass, the first attack on the WTC was an act of war (as were the attacks on the embassies in Kenya, Tanzania, and the USS Cole).


And the joyful response!

slayer199,

Umm, for some reason you feel justified at getting pissed off at liberals for this?

There are solid reasons why Clinton did not extract Bin Laden from the Sudan. First of all because he did not wish to treat the laws of our country so flipantly. To extract Bin Laden and not have a case against him that a US court wouldn't throw out would have been idiotic.

Quit trying to through the blame around on this one


My response:

Aias

As I said in my post...we were at war back in 1993 after the first WTC bombing. Rules of War are different than the Rules of Law. It's kill or be killed...and in this case over 3000 people were killed thanks to Mr. Clinton's policy. Sadly, now more people will die on both sides because of his inaction.


Basically he restates the same thing 3 more times...until we get to this post of his:

slayer199,

3000 people were killed because of some sort of POLICY that Clinton had control over?

you really are deluded.

It isn't as if the Clinton administration signed some sort of document sanctioning their action.

And another thing: the rule of war is not kill or be killed - unless you are talking philosophy and not reality.


My response...which backed him into a corner...because he was so fond of stating that Clinton couldn't prosecute him.

Aias
"3000 people were killed because of some sort of POLICY that Clinton had control over?"

Uh yeah, did you ever hear of the Gorelick memo that prevented the CIA and FBI from working together?
1995_gorelick_memo.pdf

I won't even get into Clinton's failure to act when we were at war with al Qaeda beginning in 1993.

"you really are deluded."
Don't think so...do some homework instead of blindly following Bubba.

"It isn't as if the Clinton administration signed some sort of document sanctioning their action."

See the Gorelick memo directed by Clinton above. And he did guarantee an attack on us with his inaction which emboldened bin Laden. "With Allah's grace, Muslims over there cooperated with some Arab Mujahideen who were in Afghanistan. They participated with their brothers in Somalia against the American occupation troops and killed large numbers of them... The American troops left after achieving nothing. They left after claiming that they were the largest power on earth...After some resistance from powerless, poor, unarmed people whose only weapon is the belief in Allah The Almighty, ... we learned ... the low spiritual morale of the American fighters in comparison with the experience they had with the Russian fighters. The Americans ran away from those fighters who fought and killed them, while the latter were still there. If the U.S. still thinks and brags that it still has this kind of power even after all these successive defeats in Vietnam, Beirut, Aden, and Somalia, then let them go back to those who are awaiting its return." --Osama bin Laden

"And another thing: the rule of war is not kill or be killed - unless you are talking philosophy and not reality."

What do you propose? Showering our enemies with gifts and love? If your enemy holds a gun to your family's head, will you grab your gun (you probably don't have one...guns are bad... but play along) and shoot him, or watch your family be raped and murdered while you try to understand why? I prefer Sun Tzu "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns." To that end, we should increase troops and wipe out all of the Fundamentalist Muslims.


Finally his response which I so greatly enjoyed...

Aias

I hate legalese.

I don't see this as a cut and dry situation. We were not at war after the first WTC attack and the attack on the USS Cole.

War cannot be declared on a non-state. It sounds like from your reasoning you would advocate the assasination of targets around the globe without the benifit of a trial - even if the targets are US Citizens. Sanction that, and frankly our "Western Democracy" isn't worth schite.


There you have it...according to this guy, war cannot be declared on non-state (I think he meant war cannot be declared by a non-state...whatever). By his logic, this country shouldn't exist since we weren't a "state", we were merely English colonies at the time and therefore invalid as a "state". I never responded as I lost track of time and realized I had to be up for work in 4 hours! I'm sure I would have wasted my time as he would have continued to defend Bubba.

I admit that I threw in a few ad hominem attacks...but give me a break...I was tired and cranky at the time and I still argued the points...unlike the libs...who didn't make any arguments.

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